I will withhold judgment on this specific shooting until a fuller story emerges. Objectively speaking, I'm fully within my rights to answer my door as the Airman did. It doesn't matter whether I would handle it differently, a middle-aged dude living in the suburbs. It's about the perceived threat, right? Hypothetically, if there were cases locally of home invasions where the perpetrators impersonated law enforcement, how might that change how I would answer my door?
See my comments below, but I just want to point out that there is never an obligation to open your door quickly. No matter what's happening outside, you are in control of the pace of the situation. Worst case scenario somebody might be irritated at you for a delay, but there is no reason not to take your time, assess the situation, try to figure out what's happening, talk through the door, etc. before you breech that barrier between you and what's outside.
That is so very sad. Another senseless gun/cop tragedy in America. I am so very very sorry for him, his family and the community. I'll be praying for them all!! 💔💔💔
I have an old friend who served as a gunner on a hollowed out C130(how he explained it) while serving in Vietnam. He was part of a crew that patrolled areas along Cambodia. He said the scariest parts were when they flew low between mountains and tracer fire would find them. I believe they used the battery operated cannons.
A true gunslinger.
My brother-in-law was a side gunner on a helicopter in Vietnam. He got so pissed when he returned that he left and spent the rest of his life in Germany until his death last year, 1967-2023.
My uncle served in the Air Force during the Korea conflict. He never talked about it. Same as my dad who served in the Army, WWII, South Pacific. Same as my grandfather who served in the Army, France, WWI.
My oldest brother served 10 years, Marines, 15 years, Navy. Lt. CMDR(retired) 1969-1996.
My youngest brother served in the Army, Paratroopers.
My family has met the call from our nation. God bless our troops.
It's certainly a terrible tragedy, but I see no grounds for being upset with law enforcement. The actions they take are based on the information that is known at the time. Any officer going to a report of a domestic disturbance and faced with somebody holding a gun is going to assume worst case scenario and react accordingly.
If you feel the need to have a gun in your hand when you open the door, you probably shouldn't be opening the door. If you are holding a gun and you open the door when the person outside has said that they are law enforcement, you should not be surprised if they react by shooting you. There are so many other ways to handle this that don't involve a risk of getting shot by police.
It is not clear that Fortson heard the identification before opening. (Construction and layout may mean that door-knocks are audible but voices are indistinct to people inside.)
It seems that Fortson was alone, so whatever disturbance was going on, his apartment was not the scene. If he was aware of a disturbance at all, he might have thought *that* was at his door - and as Will says, this was a man who volunteered to face danger on behalf of others.
Fortson's gun was never pointed at the officer, and he was never told to drop it. He was just shot on sight.
Sure, it's entirely possible he didn't hear everything that was said. The deputy also had other options, but unfortunately many in a situation like this immediately go into fight or flight and the only focus is on shooting before they get shot.
Ultimately the burden of making the right choice is on the guy inside, not the guy outside who's in reaction mode. You should never be in a hurry to open the door. You control the pace of the interaction, and if you think you need a gun in your hand you should be proceeding extra slowly and cautiously.
The only time I ever felt the need to have a gun in my hand when opening my front door, I was extremely careful--there was nobody knocking, but I looked out the window and the peephole, kept the gun hidden, only cracked the door open an inch at first, etc.
Many tragedies could be avoided if people just slowed down and thought carefully before proceeding.
That’s all well and good in theory, but I’ve had my door knocked on by the police unexpectedly and at night. Did I hear them say, “Sherrif’s Department.” No. We were watching a movie. I did however hear them banging on the door. Because the door serves as a large subwoofer when struck. It also insulates from both sound and temperature from the outside. And when I went to the door and looked through the peephole, did I see the deputies? No. Why not? Because standing in the doorway is considered the fatal funnel. So they knock and step to the side. I’m my case, one deputy stood beside the door where he was intentionally obscured from the view of the peephole. The other walked down the side of my house to see if there was anyone in the back yard who might pose a threat or attempt to run.
So a loud knock and no one to be seen outside through the peephole, what did I do? I opened the door and poked my head outside. I didn’t have my pistol on me; it was upstairs. And, there was no one to be seen through the peephole so I didn’t think anyone was actually there. I made the ill advised choice to open the door. That could have been anyone standing to the side hiding while waiting on me to open the door to initiate an interaction. Luckily it was the sheriff’s department. Luckily I didn’t go grab my pistol as I would have been wise to have done. Luckily it cost me $50 fine from the HOA to have my address listed in the sheriff’s department blotter despite having not been the cause of their phone call. This young man was not so lucky. This good guy with a gun met a good guy with a gun and it cost him his life. He was not so lucky.
Yeah I'm sure people don't always hear what they are saying outside the door.
All I know is that I never open my door unless I know what's going on, who's knocking, etc. A loud knock would make me even more reluctant to open the door. I would be having a conversation through the door, especially if I couldn't see anybody outside, before I'd ever consider opening it. Normalcy bias probably cost this young man his life.
I recently heard a loud unusual sound outside at about 11:00 p.m. The first thing I did was turn off all my interior lights, got my gun, and then started peeking out the window. I waited about 5 minutes without seeing anything or hearing anything before I cracked the door open. Everything was calm and quiet so I shut the door and locked it again. I found out the next morning that a car had swerved off the road and hit my neighbor's car and then took off.
A lot of people probably would have immediately opened the door and walked outside with their phone recording, hoping to get some good TikToc content. 😞
We can call it normalcy bias, or we can call it policing policy that biases law enforcement to view every interaction with the public as one of a threatening nature. But what we cannot call it is ok. It’s not ok for the cops to knock on the door and kill you. It’s not ok that the cops have to view every interaction as that threatening either. It’s also not ok to at black men (especially young black men) have to view every interaction with police as a potential deadly encounter. We really need to have the open mindedness to identify solutions to this and not dig into encampments opposed to the other side more than they are opposed to the problem at hand. It should be ok for a young black man, an airman trained to handle dangerous situations, to open his door armed and have an interaction with the police that doesn’t result in anyone being shot.
Sure, it's not ok. But before you can solve a problem you have to understand it.
Talk to anybody familiar with police training and they will tell you that it's all based on worst-case scenarios. Everybody wants to go home at the end of the shift, so to emphasis is on being ready and reacting accordingly to worst case scenarios.
They are shown videos demonstrating how it's justified to shoot somebody holding a knife 20+ feet away, because they can cross the distance and start stabbing you before you have a chance to draw your gun and shoot them effectively enough to stop them.
They are shown videos demonstrating how somebody with a gun in their hand can shoot you before you have a chance to draw your gun and shoot them (both simulation exercises and videos of real police incidents).
They are taught about the OODA loop, about how action beats reaction, etc. Put yourself in the position of the family member who will never again see their father/husband because he did not react fast enough to deal with a threat. That's the mindset of a police officer going to a domestic disturbance call--you will hear them talk about how domestic incidents are one of the most dangerous types of calls, because people are emotionally unstable and often act irrationally.
Everything is based on what comes before. You cannot take an officer, who has seen many videos and stories of situations like this one going very badly for the police officer, and tell him he's the problem. That's simply not the world we live in today.
That being said, in my preferred reality society doesn't view law enforcement as a one-stop solution to any problem. Police won't be blamed for bad things happening if they don't show up fast enough and stop it. Law enforcement stops embracing proactive policing as the default approach to everything, they seek to avoid direct confrontation wherever possible, they prioritize de-escalation wherever possible, they hire people with a high level of maturity and intelligence, they train officers to keep their brains working and analyzing instead of reacting like robots based on their pre-established programming, etc. etc. etc.
But I go back to the story about the CIA veteran trying to do the job of a police officer in Savannah GA. If you haven't heard Patrick Skinner's story, everybody should read it:
If a guy with that much skill and experience struggles to deal with the job, how can we ever expect the typical law enforcement recruit to do it the way we want it done? It's a hopeless mission, so therefore the only option left is for the people on the other side of the equation to do whatever they can do to prevent bad things from happening.
Sometimes reality really sucks, but there's no better option.
This is such a senseless tragedy. Police culture is rotten, the police in the USA believe they are fighting a war against American citizens. One only needs to look at the militarization of law enforcement since 9/11. Not all cops are bad, but the good ones need to stand up.
And very rarely is there any accountability. As I've heard said: If you have 99 good cops & 1 bad cop, but the 99 good ones cover for the 1 bad one, then you have 100 bad cops.
I mourn with you. I respect what he did for us. A tremendous loss and tragedy. I pray his family reads your comments. You said it perfectly.
I will withhold judgment on this specific shooting until a fuller story emerges. Objectively speaking, I'm fully within my rights to answer my door as the Airman did. It doesn't matter whether I would handle it differently, a middle-aged dude living in the suburbs. It's about the perceived threat, right? Hypothetically, if there were cases locally of home invasions where the perpetrators impersonated law enforcement, how might that change how I would answer my door?
See my comments below, but I just want to point out that there is never an obligation to open your door quickly. No matter what's happening outside, you are in control of the pace of the situation. Worst case scenario somebody might be irritated at you for a delay, but there is no reason not to take your time, assess the situation, try to figure out what's happening, talk through the door, etc. before you breech that barrier between you and what's outside.
Remember how they used to say, driving while black?
It's also holding a gun while black. So sad.
That is so very sad. Another senseless gun/cop tragedy in America. I am so very very sorry for him, his family and the community. I'll be praying for them all!! 💔💔💔
I have an old friend who served as a gunner on a hollowed out C130(how he explained it) while serving in Vietnam. He was part of a crew that patrolled areas along Cambodia. He said the scariest parts were when they flew low between mountains and tracer fire would find them. I believe they used the battery operated cannons.
A true gunslinger.
My brother-in-law was a side gunner on a helicopter in Vietnam. He got so pissed when he returned that he left and spent the rest of his life in Germany until his death last year, 1967-2023.
My uncle served in the Air Force during the Korea conflict. He never talked about it. Same as my dad who served in the Army, WWII, South Pacific. Same as my grandfather who served in the Army, France, WWI.
My oldest brother served 10 years, Marines, 15 years, Navy. Lt. CMDR(retired) 1969-1996.
My youngest brother served in the Army, Paratroopers.
My family has met the call from our nation. God bless our troops.
And thank you for your service.
It's certainly a terrible tragedy, but I see no grounds for being upset with law enforcement. The actions they take are based on the information that is known at the time. Any officer going to a report of a domestic disturbance and faced with somebody holding a gun is going to assume worst case scenario and react accordingly.
If you feel the need to have a gun in your hand when you open the door, you probably shouldn't be opening the door. If you are holding a gun and you open the door when the person outside has said that they are law enforcement, you should not be surprised if they react by shooting you. There are so many other ways to handle this that don't involve a risk of getting shot by police.
It is not clear that Fortson heard the identification before opening. (Construction and layout may mean that door-knocks are audible but voices are indistinct to people inside.)
It seems that Fortson was alone, so whatever disturbance was going on, his apartment was not the scene. If he was aware of a disturbance at all, he might have thought *that* was at his door - and as Will says, this was a man who volunteered to face danger on behalf of others.
Fortson's gun was never pointed at the officer, and he was never told to drop it. He was just shot on sight.
Sure, it's entirely possible he didn't hear everything that was said. The deputy also had other options, but unfortunately many in a situation like this immediately go into fight or flight and the only focus is on shooting before they get shot.
Ultimately the burden of making the right choice is on the guy inside, not the guy outside who's in reaction mode. You should never be in a hurry to open the door. You control the pace of the interaction, and if you think you need a gun in your hand you should be proceeding extra slowly and cautiously.
The only time I ever felt the need to have a gun in my hand when opening my front door, I was extremely careful--there was nobody knocking, but I looked out the window and the peephole, kept the gun hidden, only cracked the door open an inch at first, etc.
Many tragedies could be avoided if people just slowed down and thought carefully before proceeding.
That’s all well and good in theory, but I’ve had my door knocked on by the police unexpectedly and at night. Did I hear them say, “Sherrif’s Department.” No. We were watching a movie. I did however hear them banging on the door. Because the door serves as a large subwoofer when struck. It also insulates from both sound and temperature from the outside. And when I went to the door and looked through the peephole, did I see the deputies? No. Why not? Because standing in the doorway is considered the fatal funnel. So they knock and step to the side. I’m my case, one deputy stood beside the door where he was intentionally obscured from the view of the peephole. The other walked down the side of my house to see if there was anyone in the back yard who might pose a threat or attempt to run.
So a loud knock and no one to be seen outside through the peephole, what did I do? I opened the door and poked my head outside. I didn’t have my pistol on me; it was upstairs. And, there was no one to be seen through the peephole so I didn’t think anyone was actually there. I made the ill advised choice to open the door. That could have been anyone standing to the side hiding while waiting on me to open the door to initiate an interaction. Luckily it was the sheriff’s department. Luckily I didn’t go grab my pistol as I would have been wise to have done. Luckily it cost me $50 fine from the HOA to have my address listed in the sheriff’s department blotter despite having not been the cause of their phone call. This young man was not so lucky. This good guy with a gun met a good guy with a gun and it cost him his life. He was not so lucky.
Yeah I'm sure people don't always hear what they are saying outside the door.
All I know is that I never open my door unless I know what's going on, who's knocking, etc. A loud knock would make me even more reluctant to open the door. I would be having a conversation through the door, especially if I couldn't see anybody outside, before I'd ever consider opening it. Normalcy bias probably cost this young man his life.
I recently heard a loud unusual sound outside at about 11:00 p.m. The first thing I did was turn off all my interior lights, got my gun, and then started peeking out the window. I waited about 5 minutes without seeing anything or hearing anything before I cracked the door open. Everything was calm and quiet so I shut the door and locked it again. I found out the next morning that a car had swerved off the road and hit my neighbor's car and then took off.
A lot of people probably would have immediately opened the door and walked outside with their phone recording, hoping to get some good TikToc content. 😞
We can call it normalcy bias, or we can call it policing policy that biases law enforcement to view every interaction with the public as one of a threatening nature. But what we cannot call it is ok. It’s not ok for the cops to knock on the door and kill you. It’s not ok that the cops have to view every interaction as that threatening either. It’s also not ok to at black men (especially young black men) have to view every interaction with police as a potential deadly encounter. We really need to have the open mindedness to identify solutions to this and not dig into encampments opposed to the other side more than they are opposed to the problem at hand. It should be ok for a young black man, an airman trained to handle dangerous situations, to open his door armed and have an interaction with the police that doesn’t result in anyone being shot.
Sure, it's not ok. But before you can solve a problem you have to understand it.
Talk to anybody familiar with police training and they will tell you that it's all based on worst-case scenarios. Everybody wants to go home at the end of the shift, so to emphasis is on being ready and reacting accordingly to worst case scenarios.
They are shown videos demonstrating how it's justified to shoot somebody holding a knife 20+ feet away, because they can cross the distance and start stabbing you before you have a chance to draw your gun and shoot them effectively enough to stop them.
They are shown videos demonstrating how somebody with a gun in their hand can shoot you before you have a chance to draw your gun and shoot them (both simulation exercises and videos of real police incidents).
They are taught about the OODA loop, about how action beats reaction, etc. Put yourself in the position of the family member who will never again see their father/husband because he did not react fast enough to deal with a threat. That's the mindset of a police officer going to a domestic disturbance call--you will hear them talk about how domestic incidents are one of the most dangerous types of calls, because people are emotionally unstable and often act irrationally.
Everything is based on what comes before. You cannot take an officer, who has seen many videos and stories of situations like this one going very badly for the police officer, and tell him he's the problem. That's simply not the world we live in today.
That being said, in my preferred reality society doesn't view law enforcement as a one-stop solution to any problem. Police won't be blamed for bad things happening if they don't show up fast enough and stop it. Law enforcement stops embracing proactive policing as the default approach to everything, they seek to avoid direct confrontation wherever possible, they prioritize de-escalation wherever possible, they hire people with a high level of maturity and intelligence, they train officers to keep their brains working and analyzing instead of reacting like robots based on their pre-established programming, etc. etc. etc.
But I go back to the story about the CIA veteran trying to do the job of a police officer in Savannah GA. If you haven't heard Patrick Skinner's story, everybody should read it:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-came-home
If a guy with that much skill and experience struggles to deal with the job, how can we ever expect the typical law enforcement recruit to do it the way we want it done? It's a hopeless mission, so therefore the only option left is for the people on the other side of the equation to do whatever they can do to prevent bad things from happening.
Sometimes reality really sucks, but there's no better option.
This is such a senseless tragedy. Police culture is rotten, the police in the USA believe they are fighting a war against American citizens. One only needs to look at the militarization of law enforcement since 9/11. Not all cops are bad, but the good ones need to stand up.
And very rarely is there any accountability. As I've heard said: If you have 99 good cops & 1 bad cop, but the 99 good ones cover for the 1 bad one, then you have 100 bad cops.
Working theory: a lot of our societal issues deem from a lack of accountability. Not all. But a lot.
Totally agree!! From top to bottom. So very very sad.
This is a good first step. Now let's see if he gets charged with anything. I'm not holding my breath. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-deputy-fatally-shot-us-airman-fired-sheriffs-investigation-rcna154985